Finland makes broadband internet a legal right!

[brickhouse]

How do you think infrastructure gets built? If you're paying 60% tax, I'd expect not only roads but a few open fiber networks to be constructed too.

yeah but for that to first happen it will take 10-15 years

and government can't just go on building infrastructure as india has many other problems in which the money goes

Backhaul bandwidth in India is fine, the largest hurdle technically speaking is last mile.

yes but would india just be able to take all the bandwidth charges of a 1.16billion people

and those billion people will pirate and use torrents big time,so that is a big issue

 

[mgcarley]

So, you're planning to open your shop in NZ as well? Cool!

Yes. And with fewer regulations, zero cablewalas, and no issues with wifi or spectrum - in addition to completely open fiber networks already being available, I have almost none of the issues I face in India. It costs me about Rs4000 per house to set up... less than 10% my costs in Mumbai

 

[mgcarley]

yeah but for that to first happen it will take 10-15 years

and government can't just go on building infrastructure as india has many other problems in which the money goes

Infrastructure is not limited to just cables for internet. Infrastructure includes building systems for clean running water and stable electricity supplies too.

yes but would india just be able to take all the bandwidth charges of a 1.16billion people

and those billion people will pirate and use torrents big time,so that is a big issue

The broadband population of India is just 8 million people. Let's assume we get really big really fast and take 2 million customers of our own, the metrics involved in consumer services do not suggest that I have to have 1 megabit of international capacity for each megabit that we sell... in other words, say we had 2 million customers on 5mbit/s *unlimited*, we do not have to have 10 million mbit/s - if we used similar ratios to (for example) Airtel, then we would have to have only about 118,000 mbit/s, which is just 118gbit/s, which frankly isn't very much. That kind of traffic can be handled by just 1 of Juniper's second-smallest edge routers.

 

[brickhouse]

Infrastructure is not limited to just cables for internet. Infrastructure includes building systems for clean running water and stable electricity supplies too.

yes thats what i meant.they would like to build houses for people like MHADA housing before braodband and the other things you mentioned



The broadband population of India is just 8 million people. Let's assume we get really big really fast and take 2 million customers of our own, the metrics involved in consumer services do not suggest that I have to have 1 megabit of international capacity for each megabit that we sell... in other words, say we had 2 million customers on 5mbit/s *unlimited*, we do not have to have 10 million mbit/s - if we used similar ratios to (for example) Airtel, then we would have to have only about 118,000 mbit/s, which is just 118gbit/s, which frankly isn't very much. That kind of traffic can be handled by just 1 of Juniper's second-smallest edge routers.

yes but if all get connected and everybody dtarts to be online at the same time then you will have to expand and the bandwidth pipe lines will be fully used all the time which will be a big overtaking.

i know this is a long shot but so is connecting india

 

[mgcarley]

yes thats what i meant.they would like to build houses for people like MHADA housing before braodband and the other things you mentioned

New housing blocks would give them the best opportunity to actually put in cabling. They probably do it for the phone companies anyway, who want to provide phonelines - why not stick some ethernet cabinets in at the same time? The cost is surprisingly minimal and significantly less than installing later on.

yes but if all get connected and everybody dtarts to be online at the same time then you will have to expand and the bandwidth pipe lines will be fully used all the time which will be a big overtaking.

i know this is a long shot but so is connecting india

No, the aforementioned calculations would be well within regulations, so long as speeds are more than the 256kbit/s. No consumer service has to provide you with the speed the line promises, this is why there are all these disclaimers on ISP websites saying "only guaranteed up to the ISP".

If 100% of people started downloading torrents, we would only be obliged under the regulations to add more capacity once the average speed per user dropped below the 256k or something like that, however, to maintain a good quality of service, anyone with half a brain would add more international capacity well before it got to that. Fortunately there are many Tbit/s of capacity coming to India, so purchasing more bandwidth would never really be an issue.

It's only because of most users behaviour that it's more frequent that you'll get something close to your line speed, but even then it's not unheard of - as most of you will have seen - to see your speed be a lot less than the promised speed when you're downloading internationally.

The only way you could ensure to get guaranteed bandwidth would be to purchase a suitable dedicated line.

 

[brickhouse]

New housing blocks would give them the best opportunity to actually put in cabling. They probably do it for the phone companies anyway, who want to provide phonelines - why not stick some ethernet cabinets in at the same time? The cost is surprisingly minimal and significantly less than installing later on.

those MHADA houses aren't for the RICHIE RICH so ethernet cost won't do any good even if it costs more after

And our policy and rule makers don't really take the future in mind when doing a project



No, the aforementioned calculations would be well within regulations, so long as speeds are more than the 256kbit/s. No consumer service has to provide you with the speed the line promises, this is why there are all these disclaimers on ISP websites saying "only guaranteed up to the ISP".

Yes but then would the consumers buy your company's broadband.no they won't and when something like 1mbps free broadband happens,it will increase the broadband speed to 1mbps minimal

i wouldn't take a connection if your company provided 256kbps on 1mbps plans


If 100% of people started downloading torrents, we would only be obliged under the regulations to add more capacity once the average speed per user dropped below the 256k or something like that, however, to maintain a good quality of service, anyone with half a brain would add more international capacity well before it got to that. Fortunately there are many Tbit/s of capacity coming to India, so purchasing more bandwidth would never really be an issue.

yes international capacity is there but wouldn't it be fully loaded atlest the existing bandwidth bought by the constant use by people

and then when you provide 1mbps as a legal right.the companies wouldn't sustain it

It's only because of most users behaviour that it's more frequent that you'll get something close to your line speed, but even then it's not unheard of - as most of you will have seen - to see your speed be a lot less than the promised speed when you're downloading internationally.

but it would be even lesser if everybody downloads.even if not everybody.india's populations small percentage can create big problem with the huge size of the small share

The only way you could ensure to get guaranteed bandwidth would be to purchase a suitable dedicated line.

and that would cost alot so india would be going backwards.and so boradband as a legal right will only create problems in india.atleast for the next 15 years

 

[iChaitanya]

Cool, man! Wish you all the best!

 

[mgcarley]

those MHADA houses aren't for the RICHIE RICH so ethernet cost won't do any good even if it costs more after

And our policy and rule makers don't really take the future in mind when doing a project



That's why someone needs to offer to build an open-access network in these new buildings to which ANY ISP may connect to for the same cost with equal rights and so forth.

Yes but then would the consumers buy your company's broadband.no they won't and when something like 1mbps free broadband happens,it will increase the broadband speed to 1mbps minimal

i wouldn't take a connection if your company provided 256kbps on 1mbps plans


You are again misunderstanding both the news article and what I said in my previous post. You really must stop doing that, it is very frustrating.

Firstly, the 1mbit/s connection is NOT free. It is a legal right, nothing more. Like water and electricity. In Finland you pay for water on a per person basis and electricity as you use it. All the new law says is that it must be possible for every home in Finland to be able to receive at least 1mbit/s. Various news sources have suggested that in reality, this has only affected about 4,000 homes in the entire country.

Secondly, in my previous post, I was saying that if every single user on a service is downloading torrents (an extremely unlikely scenario), then to comply with the Indian regulations, all we must ensure is that 1. his speed to us is at least 256k and 2. we have at least 20kbit/s international bandwidth per user plus about 20% spare. This is a baseline. As you well know, we are not in the business of providing connections even below 2mbit/s, and our pricing reflects that to a degree, so naturally you should never expect such slow speeds from us.

I can't necessarily speak for other ISPs, but our policy of how we buy bandwidth, whether at the international, city or neighbourhood stage, is far different and calculated in such a way that, at least within our network we have a negative contention ratio (about 2.67:1), and outside our network we never see more than 75% constant utilization.

So say for example we have 10Gbit/s, the minute that our edge routers see constant usage of 7.5Gbit/s, it's time to buy more.

yes international capacity is there but wouldn't it be fully loaded atlest the existing bandwidth bought by the constant use by people

and then when you provide 1mbps as a legal right.the companies wouldn't sustain it


The existing capacity is nowhere near 100% utilized - not even 50%. Finland DOES have huge capacity links flowing to neighbouring countries which are considerably cheaper on a per mbit/s basis than anything we get in India, so cost is much less of a problem.

What this law can be more accurately compared to is the TRAI recommendation saying that 256k is the minimum to be called "broadband". But since Finland doesn't really have any narrowband service anymore, they're just saying that all internet connections must be capable of at least 1mbit/s, a target that in over 99% of the country has been hit for several years.

Students living in student housing get free Broadband given to them - 5 years ago it was 512k, then it jumped up to 2mbit/s in 2006. I would have to check what it is now, but I'd be hardly surprised to see 10mbit/s symmetrical.

but it would be even lesser if everybody downloads.even if not everybody.india's populations small percentage can create big problem with the huge size of the small share


I've already given you the numbers which suggest otherwise. There is currently enough unlit capacity to give every single Broadband user in India about 2mbit/s unlimited at a contention ratio of 1:1.

and that would cost alot so india would be going backwards.and so boradband as a legal right will only create problems in india.atleast for the next 15 years

No, India would not be going backwards. The situation is the same in any country - do you really think that ISPs in Sweden have 1 megabit of bandwidth for each megabit of bandwidth that they sell? Even for a country with only 2 million households, that's alot of bandwidth (considering 100mbit/s is fairly normal).

No consumer service in any country will ever guarantee you the promised speed, it just so happens that the way *most* people use the net doesn't involve 24/7 torrent saturation, and so you usually get close or equal to what you were promised.

---------- Post added at 04:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:40 AM ----------

Edit: Free Broadband for Finnish students is still 2/2Mbits, but for Rs600 you can upgrade to 10/10Mbits, or Rs1200 will get you 100/10Mbits.

No connection charge since the wiring is already done in these buildings and you just plug your ethernet cable in.

---------- Post added at 05:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:47 AM ----------

To support my previous point about this law being a huge "who cares" in Finland, I can't even find any mention of this making the news on any major Finnish newspaper's websites - either on the Finnish or English versions. It seems only the English-speaking world took any notice at all

 

[madhusudhan7]

thanks @mgcarley - lot of useful information...

---------- Post added at 05:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:48 AM ----------

I've already given you the numbers which suggest otherwise. There is currently enough unlit capacity to give every single Broadband user in India about 2mbit/s unlimited at a contention ratio of 1:1

Not sure if you've answered these question already... so what according to you is the issue then. Why are isp's restricting speeds - My understanding all along was probably to make more money !

 

[brickhouse]

thanks @mgcarley - lot of useful information...

lol

he types alot.

you've answered these question already... so what according to you is the issue then. Why are isp's restricting speeds - My understanding all along was probably to make more money !

as more speeds require more last mile cabling which means more money and biggest of all is the restriction to pu those cabling

and also the risk that if they provide higher speeds,then users might use more bandwidth

like on 1mbps you can download maximum of 342.5gbs per month

if they give 10mbps,people might download over 1tbs which normally doesn't happen but the risk is still there and an ISP can't afford that much bandwidth at a low cost.so they are taking it up slowly

---------- Post added at 07:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 AM ----------

That's why someone needs to offer to build an open-access network in these new buildings to which ANY ISP may connect to for the same cost with equal rights and so forth.

well government of india doesn't

You are again misunderstanding both the news article and what I said in my previous post. You really must stop doing that, it is very frustrating.

Firstly, the 1mbit/s connection is NOT free. It is a legal right, nothing more. Like water and electricity. In Finland you pay for water on a per person basis and electricity as you use it. All the new law says is that it must be possible for every home in Finland to be able to receive at least 1mbit/s. Various news sources have suggested that in reality, this has only affected about 4,000 homes in the entire country.

so people pay for that 1mbps besides taxes????

and i read somewhere that only 4000 homes are left to be connected.i could have misread it though

Secondly, in my previous post, I was saying that if every single user on a service is downloading torrents (an extremely unlikely scenario), then to comply with the Indian regulations, all we must ensure is that 1. his speed to us is at least 256k and 2. we have at least 20kbit/s international bandwidth per user plus about 20% spare. This is a baseline. As you well know, we are not in the business of providing connections even below 2mbit/s, and our pricing reflects that to a degree, so naturally you should never expect such slow speeds from us.

i was not just talking about your company but the entire indian broadband so you saying you company is not in the business of providing lower than 2mbps speed does not come here

also yeas all users on torrents is an unlikely scenario but even a small portion of indian population downloading will make it very costly

I can't necessarily speak for other ISPs, but our policy of how we buy bandwidth, whether at the international, city or neighbourhood stage, is far different and calculated in such a way that, at least within our network we have a negative contention ratio (about 2.67:1), and outside our network we never see more than 75% constant utilization.

So say for example we have 10Gbit/s, the minute that our edge routers see constant usage of 7.5Gbit/s, it's time to buy more.

it will be alot more when a Billion people jump on the broadband ship or even 200-300million

The existing capacity is nowhere near 100% utilized - not even 50%. Finland DOES have huge capacity links flowing to neighbouring countries which are considerably cheaper on a per mbit/s basis than anything we get in India, so cost is much less of a problem.

yeah but thats what we are talking about that because if the cost it will be hard to supply to a billion people

What this law can be more accurately compared to is the TRAI recommendation saying that 256k is the minimum to be called "broadband". But since Finland doesn't really have any narrowband service anymore, they're just saying that all internet connections must be capable of at least 1mbit/s, a target that in over 99% of the country has been hit for several years.

yeah that why indian broadband can't have it as there must be done alot more work on policies first then broadband implementation

Students living in student housing get free Broadband given to them - 5 years ago it was 512k, then it jumped up to 2mbit/s in 2006. I would have to check what it is now, but I'd be hardly surprised to see 10mbit/s symmetrical.

i don't know of these STUDENT housing,can you tell me about them?

i would like to shift there

I've already given you the numbers which suggest otherwise. There is currently enough unlit capacity to give every single Broadband user in India about 2mbit/s unlimited at a contention ratio of 1:1.

but will india be able to pay for it?

No, India would not be going backwards. The situation is the same in any country - do you really think that ISPs in Sweden have 1 megabit of bandwidth for each megabit of bandwidth that they sell? Even for a country with only 2 million households, that's alot of bandwidth (considering 100mbit/s is fairly normal).

so i don't think ISP's SWEDEN have 1mbps bandwidth for 1mbps they sell but that not what i am talking about

i am talking about the following costs

No consumer service in any country will ever guarantee you the promised speed, it just so happens that the way *most* people use the net doesn't involve 24/7 torrent saturation, and so you usually get close or equal to what you were promised.

but they provide close to that speed

and even if you were to have 1mbps bandwidth for each 50 people then you would only have 20million mbps for a billion people

it sounds very low if even 200m people went onto the net at the same time as they wouldn't get the promised speeds like we get today in india and you would have to have more bandwidth

Free Broadband for Finnish students is still 2/2Mbits, but for Rs600 you can upgrade to 10/10Mbits, or Rs1200 will get you 100/10Mbits.

oh,you were talking about Finnish students,i thought indian students,that why i was suprised...........lol

No connection charge since the wiring is already done in these buildings and you just plug your ethernet cable in.

and in india it isn't done.

it is done in my building but not the the caompany's wires to my building except HAthway,fivenet,nivyah,tata,airtel,mtnl which have been used by me and my building people..........hehe

To support my previous point about this law being a huge "who cares" in Finland, I can't even find any mention of this making the news on any major Finnish newspaper's websites - either on the Finnish or English versions. It seems only the English-speaking world took any notice at all

hehe

they must be like RICH people,who don't care much about money it as they have it already