Music library management

[gregory house]

All this time I have been using dbpoweramp to rip my cds to flac and then using a privately patched version of QMP to manage/ play my music. I am now thinking of going down the one cd = one image route. So I downloaded EAC and foobar2k as that's what most hydrogen audio members seem to be using.The problem is - how does the foobar2k library work? For, I am not able to store tags into the compressed flac files. The only tags which foobar accepts are the ones that can be written to the cue sheet. And I also need to be able to specify multiple genres, song writers, artists and composers for each track, plus one (or more) album artists in some cases. Another thing is, how do you maintain all track information in the media library without writing them to the audio file? Because if I can't do this stuff, the querying capabilities of foobar are not much use.Anyone having experience with foobar2k?

 

[gregory house]

I have been able to eliminate most of the above questions. Using flac files with embedded cue sheets, foobar2k now accepts all kinds of tags. And the 'title formatting' feature helps in generating customized views any way you wish; also, any tag becomes near native by tweaking a few preferences.

The only problem that still remains is that foobar2k will always store the tags in the flac file and then update its library. So, ripping a file once and keeping it unmodified while keeping all the tags in the media library won't work. The funny thing is, they had this feature (bug, they call it) in a 0.8.* release which was axed in the subsequent releases.
REQ: Store tags in a database - Hydrogenaudio Forums

Only takes me back to the whole audio player/ media manager discussion that happened three months back.
https://broadband.forum/legal-downloads/17044-audio-players/

 

[gregory house]

Mikus Rakis
Oct 19 2007, 11:54
Select complete album (starting with tracknumer 01).
Right click. Choose Utils>Write apl link files
foobar2000 will create (in same directory as your files) files with extension .apl.
add those apl files to playlist. Tag them all you want. Original files won't be touched.

This is a very interesting trick. The original file remains in place - unmodified. And foobar2k can be told to restrict itself to apl files. The only problem is instead of a single database, I will have to manage a number of apl files (equal to the number of tracks in the library). Needs more scrutiny.

 

[pita]

I will be envious if you really sort/organize your FLACs/MP3s diligently a task that I fail miserably at.Out of curiousity how big is your collection? Do you rips all your music? do u take help from torrents as well ;-) ? Are they organized by some folder structure etc?

 

[blr_p]

I am now thinking of going down the one cd = one image route

Strictly speaking this isn't necessary if you choose to use FLAC, reason being its a gapless format. The image route is more often used with non-gapless formats like mp3. By gapless i mean live cds or dj mixes where a transition between tracks is undesirable and the preferred way is to rip as one big file + Cue.

To prove this with a gapless format, if you output the playback of the seperate tracks to wav using diskwriter, and compare with the orginal big file, you will find the result is identical. There really is no need to rip as image with FLAC at all as both gapless or gapped albums will play perfectly using seperate tracks.


I have been able to eliminate most of the above questions. Using flac files with embedded cue sheets, foobar2k now accepts all kinds of tags.

The only problem that still remains is that foobar2k will always store the tags in the flac file and then update its library. So, ripping a file once and keeping it unmodified while keeping all the tags in the media library won't work.

The only problem is instead of a single database, I will have to manage a number of apl files (equal to the number of tracks in the library). Needs more scrutiny.

I used to store tags in files but changed to storing them only in the library so i could leave the file unchanged. I only save the most basic tags to the file and all future tag updates are only stored in the database. You could embed cue files in the FLACs but i dont like commingling other types of media within an audio file. You could also choose to embed art work in the file but for reasons i mentioned i prefer to keep this seperate. For one it needlessly increases the size of every single file as a function of the cover art chosen.

But i dont use FB2k to manage my collection, i've already mentioned which app i use, in earlier posts
That company has since, released a free (audio only) version of its app which you can get here

Now i prefer not to modifiy the files as i compute a checksum for each album directory for all the files which will need to be recomputed if any tag operations are performed in the future. Not writing to the files simplifies file management significantly.

- very little defragmentation.
- easy detection of file corruption

 

[gregory house]

I will be envious if you really sort/organize your FLACs/MP3s diligently a task that I fail miserably at.

Out of curiousity how big is your collection? Do you rips all your music? do u take help from torrents as well ;-) ? Are they organized by some folder structure etc?
115 cds, to be precise, plus a couple that I have not yet ripped. And yes, I do rip (nearly) all my music. I have been arranging them like -
X:\music\cds\...
X:\music\misc\... (some loose tracks)

But now with this new media library software, I am planning to add another layer to the cds part, splitting the folder like -
X:\music\cds\soundtrack\
X:\music\cds\album\

Strictly speaking this isn't necessary if you choose to use FLAC, reason being its a gapless format. The image route is more often used with non-gapless formats like mp3. By gapless i mean live cds or dj mixes where a transition between tracks is undesirable and the preferred way is to rip as one big file + Cue.

To prove this with a gapless format, if you output the playback of the seperate tracks to wav using diskwriter, and compare with the orginal big file, you will find the result is identical. There really is no need to rip as image with FLAC at all as both gapless or gapped albums will play perfectly using seperate tracks.

I have a few albums where the last second or two is cut off in every track. Not sure if it is because the ripping software was flawed or what (all other albums are fine), but just as the music is winding down, it simply shuts off. When I play the thing on the cd, it is perfect and the switch to the next track happens seamlessly. Won't having a single image help in such cases? Because even if I get a flawed cue file, I can always fine tune the track timings. And I think as the size of the collection keeps on increasing, it would be simpler to manage one file (with embedded cue sheet and very basic info - just name and year) rather than 10 and 20 tracks per album.

But i dont use FB2k to manage my collection, i've already mentioned which app i use, in earlier posts
That company has since, released a free (audio only) version of its app which you can get here

foobar2k has its quirks, but compared to QMP, it is way more configurable and powerful. If you have tried the recent version and add the facets and monkey audio decoding plugins, you get j.river like linkable panels, and can also use the monkey audio metadata files to route all the tagging to them instead of the original image. And I can tweak everything from the ui, to the property windows to the context menu.

J.River? If its free, then why not. In that case I am going to let both compete against each other to see which one is better.

I used to store tags in files but changed to storing them only in the library so i could leave the file unchanged. I only save the most basic tags to the file and all future tag updates are only stored in the database. You could embed cue files in the FLACs but i dont like commingling other types of media within an audio file. You could also choose to embed art work in the file but for reasons i mentioned i prefer to keep this seperate. For one it needlessly increases the size of every single file as a function of the cover art chosen.

Now i prefer not to modifiy the files as i compute a checksum for each album directory for all the files which will need to be recomputed if any tag operations are performed in the future. Not writing to the files simplifies file management significantly.

- very little defragmentation.
- easy detection of file corruption

 

[blr_p]

I have a few albums where the last second or two is cut off in every track. Not sure if it is because the ripping software was flawed or what (all other albums are fine), but just as the music is winding down, it simply shuts off. When I play the thing on the cd, it is perfect and the switch to the next track happens seamlessly. Won't having a single image help in such cases?

Did you use a secure ripper for this like EAC ? What did the log say ?

..otherwise MJ has one too.



Because even if I get a flawed cue file, I can always fine tune the track timings.

You should not be doing this at all, as it will change where the real transitions are.


And I think as the size of the collection keeps on increasing, it would be simpler to manage one file (with embedded cue sheet and very basic info - just name and year) rather than 10 and 20 tracks per album.

Don't follow why image is easier than individual tracks ?

I usually store albums & everything to do with them in their own folder. It does not matter to me how many files an album has associated with it that way, its all neatly tucked in its own folder.


J.River? If its free, then why not. In that case I am going to let both compete against each other to see which one is better.

Will be an interesting head to head.


This was what was bothering me yesterday, but as I discovered, apl files take the place of the media library, and they are hardly going to exceed 1kb in size. Even with 50,000 tracks in say 3000 albums, with 3000 image files and 50000 apl files, the audio files can be backed up on optical media just once. And it should be trivial to make a back up of changed apl files. Can even back up and zip the entire directory structure if necessary.

What will you do if you want to hear just a track from an album or more and have those transferred over to a portable ?

If its in an image file, FB2k will play it fine and you can queue it up however but what about extracting it from the image. I know there are tools that can do this but how seamless is this extraction ?..that too within FB2K.

Don't know how j.river does this, but for those who were avoiding foobar2k because of its tendency of storing all tags in the file itself, this is a real godsend.

It can save tags in the library as well as the files. I have chosen to save in the library only as i am very comfortable with it and have self tests to check if things are ok. The biggest downside of my method is that if the library gets corrupt you may not know unless you get a feel for it. It's not a method i would suggest to newbie of MJ. But this is really a risk with any software that stores your metadata. I ususally store a tag dump of all the album files in the albums folder as an extra precaution.

yes you could get by fine with just the cue files being backed up assuming all associated tags are also soted in it.

 

[gregory house]

Did you use a secure ripper for this like EAC ? What did the log say ?

..otherwise MJ has one too.

I was using dbpoweramp for this. And the logs didn't indicate any problem. In fact this entire series of albums is a music + interspersed dialogs one with some tracks being part music and part dialog. Am not too sure what the problem was. This time round I will be trying EAC on them and see what gives.

You should not be doing this at all, as it will change where the real transitions are.

Don't follow why image is easier than individual tracks ?

I usually store albums & everything to do with them in their own folder. It does not matter to me how many files an album has associated with it that way, its all neatly tucked in its own folder.

My above problem provides me with a very good reason. With a single image, and editing the cue sheet (don't see what the problem is, it is simply a matter of timings), I can add additional tracks in between that will provide me with fine grained control on the song and dialog sections.

I too am storing file in different folders, but management wise, bigger files just seem simpler, and also solve the above issue.


What will you do if you want to hear just a track from an album or more and have those transferred over to a portable ?

If its in an image file, FB2k will play it fine and you can queue it up however but what about extracting it from the image. I know there are tools that can do this but how seamless is this extraction ?..that too within FB2K.

There is an entire series of options available on the context menu to convert a file or mishmash of files to any desired format (as long as an encoder is provided). There is also an option of creating single image albums from an assortment of tracks (haven't tried all these yet).

It can save tags in the library as well as the files. I have chosen to save in the library only as i am very comfortable with it and have self tests to check if things are ok. The biggest downside of my method is that if the library gets corrupt you may not know unless you get a feel for it. It's not a method i would suggest to newbie of MJ. But this is really a risk with any software that stores your metadata. I ususally store a tag dump of all the album files in the albums folder as an extra precaution.

yes you could get by fine with just the cue files being backed up assuming all associated tags are also soted in it.
Yes, the library corruption problem is a real one. But if I use apl files, don't think the threat is very real.

 

[blr_p]

I was using dbpoweramp for this. And the logs didn't indicate any problem. In fact this entire series of albums is a music + interspersed dialogs one with some tracks being part music and part dialog. Am not too sure what the problem was. This time round I will be trying EAC on them and see what gives.


My above problem provides me with a very good reason. With a single image, and editing the cue sheet (don't see what the problem is, it is simply a matter of timings), I can add additional tracks in between that will provide me with fine grained control on the song and dialog sections.


Well, you store as an image file if you want to retain the fomat of the cd exactly. If you change the timings then you are altering it.

Nothing to stop you doing it of course but you are treating the symptom instead of finding the cause

Assuming your cds are not too past gone ie scratched, or the reader used isn't too whacked there should be no reason not to get a good rip.

but management wise, bigger files just seem simpler

How so ?

..you still have apl files in place of individual FLAC files, so in terms of number of files its the same.

Yes you have all the tag info stored in the APL files, but in case of a crash you still have to restore those APL files in the same folder as the tracks. No diff there either.

I only use mp3s so in certain cases (mixes + live albums) image+cue is a necessity but with FLAC you have no such restriction.

 

[gregory house]

Well, you store as an image file if you want to retain the fomat of the cd exactly. If you change the timings then you are altering it.

Nothing to stop you doing it of course but you are treating the symptom instead of finding the cause

Assuming your cds are not too past gone ie scratched, or the reader used isn't too whacked there should be no reason not to get a good rip.

Yes. That is the primary function of an image file. And, for that purpose, I don't touch the cue sheet that I embed inside the file.
To fix such issues (when I want to hear the song, I want the song, not the dialogs before it), I plan to modify a copy of the cue sheet and generate apl files. Since they are nothing but links, don't see any harm in doing that.

As for ripping the cds, I don't see a problem with the cd per se coz they work fine when played standalone. I think it was dbpoweramp missing the ending by some frames, for there is hardly any silence between two tracks and it might have made some inconvenient assumptions or I might have messed up some settings. I think you can compare this with what you call live cds, with the only difference, I want to point to specific sections of specific lengths inside the album.

How so ?

..you still have apl files in place of individual FLAC files, so in terms of number of files its the same.

Yes you have all the tag info stored in the APL files, but in case of a crash you still have to restore those APL files in the same folder as the tracks. No diff there either.

I only use mp3s so in certain cases (mixes + live albums) image+cue is a necessity but with FLAC you have no such restriction.
Seems like a matter of preference. For this, I am simply going by how many 'big' files are there. Guess writing thirteen 300 mb files to a dvd and writing one hundred files in thirteen folders are more or less the same, for I don't think anybody will go down splitting an album to save space route.

And yes, all these apl files are still lying around and they do equal the number of flac files that would have other wise been created. But for the first time, I think I can be rest assured that the audio file is safe.