Europe to end internet

[warthog]

Lägg till 138:an i telekompaketet, annars...

say hello to cable tv internet soon
http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache:www.blackouteurope.eu
The internet as we know it is at risk because of proposed new EU rules going through end of April. Under the proposed new rules, broadband providers will be legally able to limit the number of websites you can look
at, and to tell you whether or not you are allowed to use particular services. It will be dressed up as ‘new consumer options' which people can choose from. People will be offered TV-like packages - with a limited
number of options for you to access.

 

[mgcarley]

Lägg till 138:an i telekompaketet, annars...

say hello to cable tv internet soon
http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache:www.blackouteurope.eu
The internet as we know it is at risk because of proposed new EU rules going through end of April. Under the proposed new rules, broadband providers will be legally able to limit the number of websites you can look
at, and to tell you whether or not you are allowed to use particular services. It will be dressed up as ‘new consumer options' which people can choose from. People will be offered TV-like packages - with a limited
number of options for you to access.

So... kind of like AOL in the USA used to be - back in the 90's!

Ouch.

 

[reconlallu]

I dont find anything wrong with it. i think net neutrality has more to do with unsolicited filtering / modification of content. In this case the consumer will be informed beforehand about his limited access privileges, but then they should stick with it for the contract period.. no modifications allowed within billing cycles.

 

[mgcarley]

I dont find anything wrong with it. i think net neutrality has more to do with unsolicited filtering / modification of content. In this case the consumer will be informed beforehand about his limited access privileges, but then they should stick with it for the contract period.. no modifications allowed within billing cycles.

So the ISP telling you that you can't use Google (for whatever reason) is fine? What if they force you to use Yahoo or Bing or Altavista? What if they allow you to use MySpace but not Facebook? Or vice versa? What if they prevent you from looking up information on other ISPs or block forums which have significant amounts of criticism against them?

In most cases, users are ignorant - they purchase an internet subscription, and regardless of what's in the fine print, they expect to be able to get to whatever-they-want-to-visit.com, and if they can't, they're going to overwhelm the help-desk.

As mentioned, reminiscent of AOL back in the 90's, and in reality, kind of defeats the purpose of the internet. Unfortunately, I can see this sort of thing being popular in the USA and the UK (AKA "nanny states"), but most of the rest of the EU isn't that silly, and nor are the children (which is surely who the politicians are citing that they are trying to "protect"). It may reduce things like bittorrent traffic, because someone (probably the US) would lobby them to block sites like TPB and link-removed.

If I was a European ISP, I would tell them to bugger off if they tried to make me filter content.

 

[SVK]

I don't know what is meant by 'Cable Internet', but I would like to sharing some information about internet service provided by IPTV operator on TV. The operator has tie-up with few sites (e.g. banks, facebook, youtube), these sites are validated for security reasons by operator and then these sites can be browsed by customers on TV using TV/STB remote. It is similiar like WAP sites provided by mobile operators where we can access few sites which mobile operator allows.
But is it all restricting our browsing of internet on PC? I don't think so.

 

[reconlallu]

So the ISP telling you that you can't use Google (for whatever reason) is fine? What if they force you to use Yahoo or Bing or Altavista? What if they allow you to use MySpace but not Facebook? Or vice versa? What if they prevent you from looking up information on other ISPs or block forums which have significant amounts of criticism against them?

nah.. i dont think that will happen, before such a thing happens markets will get so efficient that every person will be his own ISP :clap:, after all consumers are the most important stakeholders for any business, even with the support of enablers like google or ms it isnt possible to completely overlook consumer interests :notallowed: .. secondly, i am not being judgmental, but , principally, i find nothing wrong in such a move.. lemme construct a parallel argument (just for argument sakes ):

"network hippie" to "network mommy": see, i have paid for your lan/wan/etc-setup, but still i dont have unrestricted access. there are five computers that havent shared any data, not even freeware, and almost all computers have deployed some impenetrable:grin: firewall.

network mommy = state
network hippie = me
computers = isp

In most cases, users are ignorant - they purchase an internet subscription, and regardless of what's in the fine print, they expect to be able to get to whatever-they-want-to-visit.com, and if they can't, they're going to overwhelm the help-desk.

ahem.. last five years (3 in an engg campus and 2 in a mgmt campus), i and my friends have always been tormented by these policies, so i am indifferent, fact-of-life: all our vehement opposition was crushed within few hours (mebbe it was even less than a hour, last i know they have allowed sites like link-removed and link-removed, atleast the 8mbps line will not be used for frying eggs anymore, :icry: now i just have to be satisfied with a 256kbps connection, but have unlimited :hysterical: access).

As mentioned, reminiscent of AOL back in the 90's, and in reality, kind of defeats the purpose of the internet. Unfortunately, I can see this sort of thing being popular in the USA and the UK (AKA "nanny states"), but most of the rest of the EU isn't that silly, and nor are the children (which is surely who the politicians are citing that they are trying to "protect"). It may reduce things like bittorrent traffic, because someone (probably the US) would lobby them to block sites like TPB and link-removed.

If I was a European ISP, I would tell them to bugger off if they tried to make me filter content.

i agree to that wholeheartedly.. any information (especially torrents) should be available to all, ideally at zero cost. i still remember, back in college they banned my ip for a week as a penalty for torrenting.

 

[mgcarley]

I don't know what is meant by 'Cable Internet', but I would like to sharing some information about internet service provided by IPTV operator on TV. The operator has tie-up with few sites (e.g. banks, facebook, youtube), these sites are validated for security reasons by operator and then these sites can be browsed by customers on TV using TV/STB remote. It is similiar like WAP sites provided by mobile operators where we can access few sites which mobile operator allows.
But is it all restricting our browsing of internet on PC? I don't think so.

The latter is precisely what the proposal is supposed to be about - as described in the OP, "the internet as we know it is at risk". They are not proposing a WebTV-like system. Cable Internet TV is a term coined by the OP for descriptive purposes only.

With Cable TV, if I have Hathway Cable, I can't exactly go and watch TV4 Sweden, because that's not a channel they provide. I can, however, watch VH1 or Star Movies because those ARE channels they provide. Hence my comparison to the original AOL, because "back in the day", AOL used to provide AOL only, not the real Internet - in that sense, it would kind-of be like WAP.

Cello (Netherlands ISP) might block me from viewing all sites hosted at an Orange Data Centre because they don't have a peering agreement or something...

nah.. i dont think that will happen, before such a thing happens markets will get so efficient that every person will be his own ISP :clap:,

Ohhhh, I so hope not.

after all consumers are the most important stakeholders for any business, even with the support of enablers like google or ms it isnt possible to completely overlook consumer interests :notallowed: .. secondly, i am not being judgmental, but , principally, i find nothing wrong in such a move.. lemme construct a parallel argument (just for argument sakes ):

Yes, I like customers very much.

"network hippie" to "network mommy": see, i have paid for your lan/wan/etc-setup, but still i dont have unrestricted access. there are five computers that havent shared any data, not even freeware, and almost all computers have deployed some impenetrable:grin: firewall.

network mommy = state
network hippie = me
computers = isp


Uh... yeah. I think. Why is this a good thing? You've paid for my infrastructure, therefore, you have a right to use it - preferably without restrictions. The EU is proposing that ISPs would have the options to put restrictions on what you can use and where you can go.

They might block every hostname in somewhere like Romania because it's considered to be a bit dodgy by some (say, in Finland)... but what if a Romanian guy in Finland needs to visit a site hosted in Romania? They're out of luck.

ahem.. last five years (3 in an engg campus and 2 in a mgmt campus), i and my friends have always been tormented by these policies, so i am indifferent, fact-of-life: all our vehement opposition was crushed within few hours (mebbe it was even less than a hour, last i know they have allowed sites like link-removed and link-removed, atleast the 8mbps line will not be used for frying eggs anymore, :icry: now i just have to be satisfied with a 256kbps connection, but have unlimited :hysterical: access).


If by "unlimited" you mean your theoretical 64GB/month, assuming you download 24/7. Awesome.

i agree to that wholeheartedly.. any information (especially torrents) should be available to all, ideally at zero cost. i still remember, back in college they banned my ip for a week as a penalty for torrenting.

Although largely known for their aide to piracy, torrents are a legitimate form of file sharing: not everyone can afford a server farm the size of download.microsoft.com, you know. I regularly download Linux *AND* Microsoft DVD ISOs using bit-torrent as an "official" method.

I'm not surprised that they banned your IP or MAC - school networks are not supposed to be used for torrents/limewire etc. They are considered a privilege, and, AFAIK you're not directly paying for them (even if they're included in your school fees). In addition, there is the whole liability thing for them.

 

[reconlallu]

@mgcarleyyou didnt get my sarcasm.. i generally miss that tone, anyhow clarification 1: i am fed up with 256kbps speeds; am literally :wall:clarification 2: presently, i am the so called "passout" using apna mtnl wire at home (want better speeds, neone hearing).clarification 3: our stand seems to have helped our juniors (and not us) for whom the MU, RS ports have been opened, and they are using "school" (prefer the word college) infrastructure to download games and porn at scary speeds (500~600kBps frm what i heard). i feel bad for myself.. and finally, why should torrents be disallowed in colleges ? as they say "internet as we know at time=alpha is at risk"

 

[mgcarley]

@mgcarley

you didnt get my sarcasm.. i generally miss that tone, anyhow

clarification 1: i am fed up with 256kbps speeds; am literally :wall:


Me too, that's why I've applied for the licenses from the Indian Government to start my own ISP, starting in Mumbai.

clarification 2: presently, i am the so called "passout" using apna mtnl wire at home (want better speeds, neone hearing).


I hear you. Would you prefer: "Unlimited Speed" (up to 100 Mbits, say), with (for example) 100GB download per month (with free in-network sharing), or something like 1Mbits and Unlimited downloads?

clarification 3: our stand seems to have helped our juniors (and not us) for whom the MU, RS ports have been opened, and they are using "school" (prefer the word college) infrastructure to download games and porn at scary speeds (500~600kBps frm what i heard). i feel bad for myself


5 Mbits... woooow... not.

.. and finally, why should torrents be disallowed in colleges ? as they say "internet as we know at time=alpha is at risk"

In India this is one thing that, in most cases, a school or work network should not be used for, simply for the reason of liability. If the Indian Government were to cave to the US lobbyists and whatnot, the universities would lose their ISP licenses (per the TRAI requirements for record keeping and whatnot) and then everyone there would be screwed.

Additionally, simply the sheer cost of bandwidth in India is prohibitive enough as it is, without the cost of that bandwidth having to be borne by people who barely use it by way of increased fees, and considering, school internet is provided for a reason. Would you seriously consider using Bit-torrent at your workplace to download porn and games?

If it were another country (somewhere in Scandinavia, perhaps), then bandwidth isn't an issue. I used to have a direct 100Mbits connection to the Finnish Internet Exchange from my office (no ADSL, no cable - simply an Ethernet connection). I could download data as fast as my poor little laptop hard disk could write it, and this was nearly 4 years ago. It was fun.

 

[reconlallu]

@mgcarleyI wont find much use for the unlimited speed offer, considering the purpose of my downloads and the exorbitant prices that you may charge for them. Presently, for me the sweet spot would be 2mbps with 50gB of downloads per month... its just right for me, by the time I finish one anime or sitcom episode, the others ready on the local hdd.Just so that you get some idea of my willingness to pay.. i used to pay Rs800 per term (3-4 months) for my school connection (they also had charges for other computational facilities, which ran into 1000s, ironically I never used them), right now, i am ready to fork out a lil over thousand per month for my proposed connection, mebbe a lill more than that if you can setup and sustain a very good DC++ user base .. is that too much to ask for?Finally, a workplace is different from schools, you are expected to be at work 10 hrs a day, after that you pack your bags and leave for home... on the other hand, you are expected to "live" in a school for four months and then you get a measly month or a half of holidays.. so while considering the applicability of torrents, a workplace is not a good example for a student.