Section 377

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One does not consider what impact it will cause to parents/sisters/other brothers. How much wud they go through mentally? Indian culture still believes in joint family. People can not live in such environment. Once this law is scrapped, they wud demand a new law to be made, that family HAS to accept them and any opposition to this wud be punishable. etc etc.


Hasn't the joint family been under attack for some time now ?

The idea that the whole family along with spouses lives under one roof.

Worked great if all work in the family business but if not, usually divisions occur ?

Also isn't land an issue nowadays ?

In the good old days you could fit as many under one roof but how do you do that now. Land area stays constant and costs a lot whereas there is no limit to the rate a family can muliply.

Maybe someone else more knowledgeable about the workings of the joint family could comment

I don't have an answer wrt to punishment for non-acceptance. I assume here you are using the precedents set by caste ie punishable to discriminate. And i cannot prove a negative ie state it WONT happen. But in the west it cant be used to discriminate for jobs. Course discrimination there is very subtle so its usually nearly impossible to prove unless blatant. If you recall Obama's opening speech, he did include them amongst the various communities. Inshort its a battle for another day.

But i can say this, that it should not be used to prevent the removal of 377.

Inshort wont stay with THEM (the two). He has equal rights in house but I have RIGHT too, to decide with whom shud I be staying.

Consider the hypothetical case where a straight member marries someone against the wishes of family. What happens in this case ?

Presumably your objections would be similar. If so how would it be resolved then ?

You have raised good points that require answers. You have explained why you think this will cause the death of the Indian joint family which is what the topic title is about

 

[waterloo_sunset]

To add to my earlier post, as far as i'm aware, there is no concrete scientific evidence as yet which proves beyond doubt if people are "born gay". So the notion that it's hardcoded in their DNA and cannot be helped is a lil premature and baseless.

 

[vebk]

To add to my earlier post, as far as i'm aware, there is no concrete scientific evidence as yet which proves beyond doubt if people are "born gay". So the notion that it's hardcoded in their DNA and cannot be helped is a lil premature and baseless.

You are probably correct. I don't think there is any concrete scientific evidence either. But the consensus worldwide in the medical / psychiatric community is that it is NOT an illness (mental or physical) that can be or needs to be cured.

Sure, there are people who 'experiment' out of curiosity. There are probably a lot of people who revert back to heterosexuality afterwards (just as some people find their inner homosexuality or bisexuality).

I often think when I observe gay men acting in a flamboyant / flaming / effeminate manner, what it is that makes them act that way? My own humble opinion is that they act that way because the only subculture (the gay subculture) that accepts them and doesn't hate, judge or discard them, indirectly promotes that kind of behaviour. In addition, it helps build a sense of identity. But to say that all gay men are effeminate is not correct, neither that all effeminate men are gay. In any event, they certainly don't deserve to be despised or made outcasts. You may not like them, but no one is asking you to hang out with them.

Unfortunately, these issues I feel are mere horse-blinds that work inthe favour of corrupt religious / moral / political leaders who want to distract us from the REAL moral and social issues - corruption, hate, prejudice, bigotry, war, poverty, sexual discrimination, religious intolerance and hate mongering etc.

 

[Fiber_Optic]

12 pages in 2 days , this is the most active topic, since FUP


If countless foreign occupations could not dent the culture of this country, how can a few gays pull it off ?



No truer word has been said in IBF :thumbsup:

People who talk about indian culture being under threat, forget that this culture has survived a thousand years of assault and subjugation, if it can survive all that then it can survive against anything .

 

[amish]

Hasn't the joint family been under attack for some time now ?

The idea that the whole family along with spouses lives under one roof.

Worked great if all work in the family business but if not, usually divisions occur?

Also isn't land an issue nowadays?

In the good old days you could fit as many under one roof but how do you do that now. Land area stays constant and costs a lot whereas there is no limit to the rate a family can muliply.

Maybe someone else more knowledgeable about the workings of the joint family could comment


The problem here is you are mixing two things. You are saying that joint family problems are already there so this "probable new problem" should not really be problem.

Anyway let me tell you, joint family still exist in India. Times are changing but joint family is still in majority to home of 2. Yes size of joint family is reducing earlier grand-father to grandsons were there. Now its father to son. But again that too in major cities, where space is very expensive. In village they still have plenty of space that they can accomodate 5-10 ppl easily.

I am not going in detail as its offtopic and also totally another topic. But first paragraph above tells what I am trying to tell.

I don't have an answer wrt to punishment for non-acceptance. I assume here you are using the precedents set by caste ie punishable to discriminate. And i cannot prove a negative ie state it WONT happen. But in the west it cant be used to discriminate for jobs. Course discrimination there is very subtle so its usually nearly impossible to prove unless blatant. If you recall Obama's opening speech, he did include them amongst the various communities. Inshort its a battle for another day.


See again u r trying to put example of west and what their leaders say. Did u consider what ur parents or sisters have to say abt it?

So again difference in basic thinking betwn u and me.

Consider the hypothetical case where a straight member marries someone against the wishes of family. What happens in this case ?

Presumably your objections would be similar. If so how would it be resolved then ?


No my objection wont be similar. Accepting what is natural is easier than accepting what is unnatural. I am not saying that my brother wud no longer be my brother OR I will hate him. All I am saying is its against religion and against culture. Believer of science can laugh at me but it doesnt matter to me.

You have raised good points that require answers. You have explained why you think this will cause the death of the Indian joint family which is what the topic title is about

Thanks!

 

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You are probably correct. I don't think there is any concrete scientific evidence either. But the consensus worldwide in the medical / psychiatric community is that it is NOT an illness (mental or physical) that can be or needs to be cured.

Agreed. They have been reports of a gay gene but there does not seem to be enough support for the idea. We are still a long way from explaining WHY some one is gay or not.

Sure, there are people who 'experiment' out of curiosity. There are probably a lot of people who revert back to heterosexuality afterwards (just as some people find their inner homosexuality or bisexuality).


There is the exception of bi's or bisexuals who are attacted to both sexes tho they tend to be in the minority.

 

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[amish]

Just wanted to add a couple of other points.

[*] There is no such thing as "an Indian Culture" - "Indian Culture" means a different thing to a farmer in rural madhya pradesh, it means a different thing to a technology consultant in Guragon, ...


First of all I personally wud laugh at this when someone says there is no such thing as "Indian culture" because that makes India un-united. Similarly if there is no indian culture, then there is no western culture as well.

Anyway, in India culture is closely related to religion. There are different cultures but overall base is same. i.e stay united, stay social. Religion also says that. (its different matter that internally we still fight)

But now, I wud say the following is based on assumption that you believe in religion if not then there is no point in reading because eventually u r going to laugh at me.

In India, marriage is also done religiously. Every religion has its RITES and RITUALS of marriage.

Now if u accept gay marriage, then since u r religious, u wud also want them to marry religiously. So how do u do that?

Wud u find a pandit who wud do this for u?
wud u make them take 4 to 7 PHERAs (circles)?
who is husband, who is wife? who wud be infront for first 3 pheras and in back for remaining PHERAs?
wud procedure and slokes of marriage remain the same?

if u dont have answer, then that marrige is remains incomplete wrt religion.


This is what is indian culture. That marriage is NOT just court marriage with 2 witnesses. Marriage is a complete cultural and religious thing. Hope vebk atleast understands this.

 

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Anyway let me tell you, joint family still exist in India. Times are changing but joint family is still in majority to home of 2. Yes size of joint family is reducing earlier grand-father to grandsons were there. Now its father to son. But again that too in major cities, where space is very expensive. In village they still have plenty of space that they can accomodate 5-10 ppl easily.

OK.

See again u r trying to put example of west and what their leaders say. Did u consider what ur parents or sisters have to say abt it?

No, what i was telling you is what the future could look like. That it would be illegal to discriminate against gays which is what i thought your concern is about when you mentioned "bring more laws".


So again difference in basic thinking betwn u and me.

Agreed, i'm more accustomed to the western objections to the idea and given the way the thread started it did look all too depressingly similar.

At the time I did not appreciate the difference with India & the joint family as the concept is non-existant in the west. But you only mentioned this now. This was prolly what warthog was referring to and expecting ppl to grasp but sorry it needed to be made more obvious. The talk about religon & culture completely threw us out.


No my objection wont be similar. Accepting what is natural is easier than accepting what is unnatural.


My point was more along the lines that you would be forced to accept someone into the family that initially you might have been against. I guess over time once the nieces & nephews arrrived you will have made your peace. Course with a gay couple this wont happen and its forever unnatural.


All I am saying is its against religion and against culture. Believer of science can laugh at me but it doesnt matter to me.

Actually i think you made your point quite well without resorting to religon. You are talking about a practical matter here. Which is in stark contrast to the knee jerk, tired, unfounded opposition heard in the west.

I think its clear in this case that a gay member of the family would be expected to move out once compensated. Does that strike you as a potential solution to this issue ?

As I don't agree that a gay member should be denied the benefits of inherited property. Gay or not a family member they still are.

There could be other solutions to sharing as well. Is this the only concern you have ?

 

[vebk]

The great cultural diversity of the human race not just around the planet but across the ages shows us one thing - when it comes to cultural aspects there is very little that can be termed "natural" and most of it is "cultural,' that is to say it's dynamic, variable and in constant flux. I once read about sexuality in Mexico where amongst two people having (what we would call) gay sex, the person being penetrated was considered 'homosexual' or 'effeminate' but the person penetrating was considered to be 'manly,' 'macho' and totally 'heterosexual'. In one tribe in New guinea, children often played around in (what we could call) a homosexual manner. The rites of passage in that tribe would include a phase where young men would perform (what we would call) homosexual acts to older men so as to 'gain' manhood. After that period they would be (what we would call) heterosexual for the rest of their lives.

To say that heterosexuality is the only "natural" sexual orientation would be to say that these whole groups of people were/are artificial. Unfortunately in this country especially we are all happy to "do MBA find good job" and don't care to learn about the world and the VAST cultural variation in it which wold shatter all notions we have of universally "natural" behaviour. Instead settling in the dust of prejudices and misinformation is comfortable.

 

[amish]

I think its clear in this case that a gay member of the fmaily would be expected to move out once compensated. Does that strike you as a potential solution to this issue ?

No I dont have a solution which wud be globally accepted. But my solution wud be to leave this as is. Whatever they want to do, do it privately.

In India once it discloses publically. People leave no opportunity to embarrass parents or sisters.(even though it was that individual's decision). They wud start talking this and that. But thats a side effect of Indian social culture. Thats how people react/behave. (I do NOT mean there is no side effect of western culture)

Wud anyone readily marry younger brother and sisters, who are straight? And that too stay with gay couple in other room?

We cant control all these no matter what. So my solution is keep it private matter. Dont promote it.

PS: I am not able to explain it completely because solution is very complicated.


As I don't agree that a gay member should be denied the benefits of inherited property.

I already said somewhere that he will remain my brother and i wont hate him at all. So he has equal rights.