Sunil Mittal gives up on cheap broadband in India: We are giving up on Airtel Broadband coz of FUP

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Hayai so are you saying the first launch would be in Mumbai and Pune ?? if so what is the expected date ?? i guess things are in planning stages still ?

Planning for Mumbai is well and truely finished. Just waiting on customer equipment.
 
I don't think its getting cheaper at all considering their latest FUP limits and I don't see a light at the end of the 3G tunnel anytime soon.
 
SushubhYoure opener is good and Mittal is just ranting as any CEO will but there is one thing i'm not sure about. You say there will be no revolution with wireless because it cannot serve those in the cities.All it takes is for the mobile platform to take off ie apps which make it worthwhile. If such a thing does materialise in the near future, the phone becomes the computing platform of choice through sheer numbers. So it does not need to be 1Mbps bandwidth but if its in the few hundreds of kbs then thats all thats required.
 
ah well. broadband is different from making calls. you do not make calls all day long or even for hours continuously. but internet? it consumes more data than just vocal calls and you can make just as many calls.

even then, our networks are massively congested. at least for the major players like airtel and vodafone. they cannot sustain similar loads if wireless broadband indeed becomes useful.

if using mobile apps to get data in chunks is going to be called broadband revolution... then i am sorry. i would be disappointed. :D

---------- Post added at 11:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 PM ----------

i am more looking more towards legal video on demand services like netflix...
 
If the demand is there then the prices come down.This to me has always been the barrier, ISPs look at the country and the cities are the only place they see profits can be made.Wireless means no wires just repeater towers that serve a great deal more ppl. No last mile obstacle.
 
If the demand is there then the prices come down.

This to me has always been the barrier, ISPs look at the country and the cities are the only place they see profits can be made.

Wireless means no wires just repeater towers that serve a great deal more ppl. No last mile obstacle.

You're suggesting the demand isn't there already? Is 8.1 million broadband subscribers not "demand"? Even if the population is over a billion, 8 million broadband subscribers isn't exactly laughable. That's twice as much as the entire population of my country.

Personally, I look at rural India and see population densities not entirely different from some cities I've lived in. We don't have to serve a megapolis like Mumbai to be profitable - in theory we could concentrate on a town of 50-100-200k people and do well there because there would be competition with... well... only BSNL in most cases. In fact, I would hazard to guess that we could potentially provide better service in "smaller" towns than we could in the cities.

As for wireless... in cities I don't think it's the answer. Wireless is and always has been good for "light" usage - but for torrents and streaming video... not so much. Yes, it is possible to provide such things over wireless and all of this is coming to fruition but for it to work in a city like Mumbai you need to have towers every 100m or less, which does present a last mile issue.

When NTT or KDDI or Softbank want to put towers in in Tokyo, they just come in and say "we need to put a tower in" and the tenants don't have much choice. In India, there is all the bureaucracy and paperwork and getting permission from the societies which say no half the time or demand too much money... so frequently you end up with situations whereby the area is covered but if you're inside the house you can't get a signal worth a damn and in that case wireless broadband doesn't have a hope in hell of really working sufficiently.

I do like wireless broadband - I've used it in many places and on more than one occasion it has saved my ass for one reason or another but I don't see it as a panacea for "solving the broadband problem" in India - especially in cities. I see it more as a little sister to wired broadband... second rate, perhaps, but complimentary all the same. It shouldn't be a primary mode of access, but it should be widely available, and if companies like mine and Reliance and Tata and Bharti can offer it as an alternative/backup/light-use solution (for example, if the wired access is out), then we should.
 


You're suggesting the demand isn't there already? Is 8.1 million broadband subscribers not "demand"? Even if the population is over a billion, 8 million broadband subscribers isn't exactly laughable. That's twice as much as the entire population of my country.
The problem is those 8 million are in pockets in a very large country. For a middle class that's supposedly in the 200-350 millions (depending on who you ask), what is 8 million ? More importantly to you what is the growth rate here ?

To use the net one has invest in a PC, that's dependent on disposable income & how erratic the power supply is, in comparison a cellphone is pretty much independent of the nat grid. Its a self-contained platform with a much lower upfront cost. The rate of development is very fast as phones get cheaper and more capable.

The bulk of this country still surfs on a wired connection at work or at school instead of at home :(

Personally, I look at rural India and see population densities not entirely different from some cities I've lived in. We don't have to serve a megapolis like Mumbai to be profitable - in theory we could concentrate on a town of 50-100-200k people and do well there because there would be competition with... well... only BSNL in most cases. In fact, I would hazard to guess that we could potentially provide better service in "smaller" towns than we could in the cities.
Sure, but do you have subscriber growth rates to support this investment ?

As for wireless... in cities I don't think it's the answer. Wireless is and always has been good for "light" usage - but for torrents and streaming video... not so much. Yes, it is possible to provide such things over wireless and all of this is coming to fruition but for it to work in a city like Mumbai you need to have towers every 100m or less, which does present a last mile issue.
I agree it won't work for torrents and the like, thats a different segment. I was talking about light weight apps that work well with mobiles. This is where the potential for use is higher if there were apps out there to compel ppl to spend on the extra bandwidth. That right there given the 100s of millions of phones out there could be the biggest trigger waiting to be tapped.

The big caveat here is I'm talking about apps that do not exist currently for cellphones and therefore the demand isn't there yet.

When NTT or KDDI or Softbank want to put towers in in Tokyo, they just come in and say "we need to put a tower in" and the tenants don't have much choice. In India, there is all the bureaucracy and paperwork and getting permission from the societies which say no half the time or demand too much money... so frequently you end up with situations whereby the area is covered but if you're inside the house you can't get a signal worth a damn and in that case wireless broadband doesn't have a hope in hell of really working sufficiently.
Thats a serious obstacle to increasing coverage in the city but not outside where 75% of the country still lives. A revolutoin in broadband, for me, isn't attained by just providing it in cities alone.

I do like wireless broadband - I've used it in many places and on more than one occasion it has saved my ass for one reason or another but I don't see it as a panacea for "solving the broadband problem" in India - especially in cities. I see it more as a little sister to wired broadband... second rate, perhaps, but complimentary all the same. It shouldn't be a primary mode of access, but it should be widely available, and if companies like mine and Reliance and Tata and Bharti can offer it as an alternative/backup/light-use solution (for example, if the wired access is out), then we should.
Sure, wireless is a compliment to wired connections but the numbers would dwarf wired connections. Right now the iPad is a little taste of what wireless computing platforms could look like in the future. Five years from now, there will be a lot of immitators availaible.
 
The problem is those 8 million are in pockets in a very large country. For a middle class that's supposedly in the 200-350 millions (depending on who you ask), what is 8 million ? More importantly to you what is the growth rate here ?


Growth rate seems to be about 500k a year, if we go strictly by statistics.

8 million isn't a lot going just by the population size but it's also not small enough to ignore. Besides, if we bring more affordable access to the population, potentially the number of subscribers could accelerate.

To use the net one has invest in a PC, that's dependent on disposable income & how erratic the power supply is, in comparison a cellphone is pretty much independent of the nat grid. Its a self-contained platform with a much lower upfront cost. The rate of development is very fast as phones get cheaper and more capable.


The thing with cellphones is that all the most inexpensive ones only support EDGE at best, so no matter how widespread 3G becomes over the next couple of years, they won't be able to take advantage of 3G anyway.

Then there are always new devices similar to cellphones coming out.

Granted, but in some particularly rural areas, we're planning more of a cyber-cafe situation rather than individual subscribers - this allows us to control things like electricity, and since we could do the entire platform on open-source, costs really wouldn't be that high.

The bulk of this country still surfs on a wired connection at work or at school instead of at home :(


Agreed, but even schools and businesses aren't getting decent connections and they definitely are not cheap! We've got a couple of branches of a school waiting to switch to us from an Airtel leased line.

A school should have probably 512k-1Mbit/s per seat to be on the safe, but they're getting something like 2Mbit/s total as of now and they're doing a lot of video work. Since most of the videos would be streamed or transferred only between campuses, this is a huge opportunity for them to utilize the Hayai Zone.

Sure, but do you have subscriber growth rates to support this investment ?


A city with 200k people in it won't cost very much to cover - we could potentially cover a city of that size with just 1 or 2 PoPs.

I agree it won't work for torrents and the like, thats a different segment. I was talking about light weight apps that work well with mobiles. This is where the potential for use is higher if there were apps out there to compel ppl to spend on the extra bandwidth. That right there given the 100s of millions of phones out there could be the biggest trigger waiting to be tapped.

The big caveat here is I'm talking about apps that do not exist currently for cellphones and therefore the demand isn't there yet.


You might be surprised. As a former resident of Finland, I can assure you that there are hundreds of apps for... all sorts of things... which could easily be licensed from the bright-sparks in that country: if only the bandwidth were available.

Of course, it's hard to say without knowing what types of apps you're thinking of.

And users shouldn't have to "spend extra" - it should be provided at a reasonable cost to begin with. 1GB for Rs100-150 I'd say is fairly reasonable for mobile data. In India, it is definitely possible for the operators to recoup the cost of the 3G spectrum just by shifting as many GBs as possible. Volume counts - if they make data packs too expensive, few will buy and it'll take longer for them to recoup the costs.

Thats a serious obstacle to increasing coverage in the city but not outside where 75% of the country still lives. A revolutoin in broadband, for me, isn't attained by just providing it in cities alone.


I agree, 100%. Hence why I think in those areas either a cyber-cafe sort of deal (dodgy electricity supply) or WiMax can work, or dare I say it, even WiFi. I don't go to rural India too often, but if we're talking about a situation where people can be in one place and get free access on any WiFi-enabled device (it's coming in on some sub-Rs10k cellphones now too), then that *could* be revolutionary. Or even on a wifi-equipped OLPC-type device.

Sure, wireless is a compliment to wired connections but the numbers would dwarf wired connections. Right now the iPad is a little taste of what wireless computing platforms could look like in the future. Five years from now, there will be a lot of immitators availaible.

In some ways, I sure hope so. When it comes to the point where we are actually planning a rollout to some test-areas of "rural India" (next year?), we can explore every method of distributing the access - the main thing naturally is practicality. It can't be too expensive, the range should be reasonably long and it shouldn't be difficult to get "hooked in". I think that in reality, getting the fiber out there to provide the basic node is probably the least of our problems.
 
You might be surprised. As a former resident of Finland, I can assure you that there are hundreds of apps for... all sorts of things... which could easily be licensed from the bright-sparks in that country: if only the bandwidth were available.

Of course, it's hard to say without knowing what types of apps you're thinking of.
For starters i'm thinking of apps the govt could put out.
- Money transfer like m-pesa in Kenya, Think making payments & receiving benefits using just the cellphone to anyone in the country.
- Do your taxes and submit returns, in the US this was possible over ten years back and did not need any broadband at all.

In short any kind of interaction with the govt that could be done electronically instead of face to face. The govt would be the catalyst for this kind of model.

Usually i'd let the market sort it out but in this country, that might take much longer than if the govt gets involved at the outset. The govt will not invest in something that does not provide an adequate return. If the govt can show that ppl will be using this service to make payments to them then it might be an easier sell to subsidise the rollout.

The problem of course is the govt does not think this way (yet), the only reason you see more e-governance schemes & claims to better transparency is due to world bank loans avalied by various city councils across the country. These councils cannot get loans from state banks because banks will not loan to them on terms they can comply with, in short city councils are not profitable customers for state banks to loan to. But these councils can get loans from the world bank and one of the conditions the world bank sets is better e-governance and transparency.

What i'm unsure about is if the govt makes prices low and keeps them that way whether it would be profitable enough for private companies to take over in the future. The tradeoff is larger volume at lower per user cost. Artifically interfering in the market is always a bad thing even when well managed and could lead to unintended consequences.
 

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