Unlimited broadband plans: what is the future?

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Our Indian ISPs can follow the examples of what a lot of foreign ISPs are doing.

They should give a respectable download limit of say 30 to 60GB per month for Rs. 700 or so per month at max speed like 8 mbps or even 20 mbps. Once you have exhausted your monthly download quota of 30GB, you will get downgraded to a 128 kbps unlimited connection. This will ensure that you get a monthly bill of fixed amount irrespective of your usage.

This will ensure that P2P (torrent) downloaders don't end up downloading every bit of porn that is available online. On the other hand an average user will be happy with a 30GB limit at 8 mbps and more at 128 kbps.


Hey Topweb,

you can actually become a product maanger with these BB providers instead of the dumbasses FTMBAs who get throuhg & do nothin but sit on their assess and introduce the same tariffs & plans that eveb their grand fathers were using...

Rgds..
 
Hey Topweb,

you can actually become a product maanger with these BB providers instead of the dumbasses FTMBAs who get throuhg & do nothin but sit on their assess and introduce the same tariffs & plans that eveb their grand fathers were using...

Rgds..

I don't think Product Managers really have a great amount of say when it comes to deciding tariffs.

What this country needs is a revolutionary.

Going off topic a little, I was talking about this the other night while out to Dinner and I came across my second skeptic ever, who suggested one issue with what we're doing is that, when Tata, Reliance et al see what we're doing and if it works well, and that this is the way the market is shifting, then they will try to implement it on a larger, possibly cheaper scale in order to try and squash us away from being a competitive threat.

His suggestion to the problem? Build the business, build the infrastructure, then sell it off to the big guys for some big dollars (yes, he is an American, how did you guess?)

But to me this means that we would be back at square one: competition goes away, situation stagnates once again, and everyone suffers. I tried to explain to him that, while we are planning to get big and go nationwide, I think that because we're kind of in a niche already, the others don't have too much to worry about as far as the "lower" end of the scale is concerned - they have set a precedent and now they're stuck with providing internet access for Rs 500/mo.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing from their perspective: it's a competitive area within the market as a whole, there are a lot of customers there also and that section of the market they shouldn't really have any fear of losing to the likes of us - whereas the high-end is basically non-existent - Airtel is probably doing the best in this segment as far as providing 8 and 16 Mbits at a "reasonable" price where nobody else is, and the demand is increasing, but further than that, there is nothing.
 
Recently I was neared by a foreign customer for a job that demanded downloading about 10 GB data every day as well as uploading the same amount of data to the servers of the client in the USA.

Yup, so anything less than 4mbit/s down and 1mbit/s up would make that fairly painful - even impossible!
 
Just to revisit the old thread. I feel pained to see (and read) that there are lost business opportunities because the bandwidth was not sufficient. There are no real credible alternatives to the existing crop of ISP's with their attendant issues and dickheadedness. I fail to understand this; why are most ISP's loath to provide better services? Does it mean more investment in the human resources? Train people more effectively would mean higher overheads? Or does the existing system offer them more incentives to rip off their existing customers? I have read about the likes of say Tikona Broadband (WTF- the name sucks) who are interested to set up a Wimax like feature. A wireless "broadband" barely suffices- good for initial roll out but they are not willing to invest from a longer term perspective. Maybe it is the Indian customer who is perhaps to be blamed. We don't see a value in "investing" in resources for a long term perspective either or pay higher upfront charges. For example, while I understand the need for "higher speeds" and "unlimited" Internet, but try selling this concept to my folks who are steeped in the notion that if it is not broken, there is no need to fix it. It took me a hell of a time to get the telephone line fixed up, the pairing at the exchange sorted out, the General Manager shouted at and took some phone calls to BSNL's corporate office and to Circle Manager with ample screenshots to buttress my claim. It was going on "peacefully" before I came back to my native place. Their Skype worked albeit with a "broken connection" at times and the rented BSNL's Wifi modem just about servicing their needs. What is the way out then for "unlimited services" then? Perhaps make the existing system more efficient? Maybe getting together as customers on a common platform to demand "better services"? What is the definition of "better services"- 99.9% uptimes ALL the times? Never a lag? It's hard to come over such an issue but then we all know the cure of this malady- efficient broadband is the answer. But we don't know how to treat this malady...
 
Just to revisit the old thread.

I feel pained to see (and read) that there are lost business opportunities because the bandwidth was not sufficient. There are no real credible alternatives to the existing crop of ISP's with their attendant issues and dickheadedness.


The way I see it, it seems to be one of those neverending things. The "best" ISPs in India tend to be limited in some way - either they're local ISPs or they have nationwide coverage, but in limited pockets (such as Airtel).

The fully nationwide ISPs like BSNL or MTNL could spend $250,000 on a big-ass core router (or 8 little ones), but the number of users they have could saturate it in a day. I'm not saying they shouldn't do that (they absolutely should), but for them there is little value.

They can't really increase tariffs, so that wipes a few crores off the balance sheet for very little gain - there isn't really anyone who can compete with them on the level required for them to move their asses yet.

I fail to understand this; why are most ISP's loath to provide better services? Does it mean more investment in the human resources? Train people more effectively would mean higher overheads? Or does the existing system offer them more incentives to rip off their existing customers?


Human Resources in India are cheap as chips. $250,000 for one router or 25 more staff? Jobs, of course! And as far as I know if employees are put through training programs, it's not always possible to keep them. And even if you do, you have to pay them more because they are more valuable. Catch-22.

Of course, if companies paid decent salaries in India, then this would be less of an issue. I've been offered jobs for everything between 1.8 and 11 lakhs per year - In India I could probably live on about 4 or 5, but seriously, who are they kidding?

That and if companies treated people properly (from my perspective, workers get treated like dogs by many companies), then maybe this would be less of an issue. In my opinion, offering incentives for upskilling isn't necessarily a bad way to do things, and in theory there's nothing stopping a company from asking an employee to stay for 12-24 months if they pass some course.

Of course, then there's the quality of the courses, but we won't go there.

I have read about the likes of say Tikona Broadband (WTF- the name sucks) who are interested to set up a Wimax like feature. A wireless "broadband" barely suffices- good for initial roll out but they are not willing to invest from a longer term perspective. Maybe it is the Indian customer who is perhaps to be blamed. We don't see a value in "investing" in resources for a long term perspective either or pay higher upfront charges.


This is a big problem. In many countries you can get away with a $100 or $200 installation fee, but in India it has to be $10 or $20. Which comes back to the point: how in the hell do we pay the people who actually do the work? If it takes them 2 hours, there goes our $10 install fee.

For example, while I understand the need for "higher speeds" and "unlimited" Internet, but try selling this concept to my folks who are steeped in the notion that if it is not broken, there is no need to fix it. It took me a hell of a time to get the telephone line fixed up, the pairing at the exchange sorted out, the General Manager shouted at and took some phone calls to BSNL's corporate office and to Circle Manager with ample screenshots to buttress my claim.


In India there is DEFINITELY the need for faster Internet, but frankly I think "unlimited" is bull. It's a bad business model, for starters, but the data plans available in most countries are more expensive than they should be.

In India this seems to be because ISPs nickel and dime the customers who, apparentely want to be nickel and dimed. It *sounds* better when you can "control" your usage by being charged like 50ps per MB, rather than being charged Rs100 per GB, but these days a single page can consume 1MB of data, so 200 of those and you've surpassed what you would have otherwise spent.

Of course, people are so concerned about getting maximum value that *it seems* they would rather use just 200MB of data and pay Rs100 for it than be charged Rs100 and have the OPTION of using up to 1024MB of data, even if they don't use that much - because if they don't use all 1024MB, whatever remains unused is considered to be wasted.

I'd rather make a couple of rupees per GB but have each one accounted for than have to worry about users who consume more than their fair share and ruin the experience for everyone else.

The problem is that users have come to expect "unlimited" options to be available, and then go on to bitch when they are subjected to FUPs or traffic shaping and other such nonsense, leaving the customer with a sour experience using that company's services

It was going on "peacefully" before I came back to my native place. Their Skype worked albeit with a "broken connection" at times and the rented BSNL's Wifi modem just about servicing their needs.


IMHO the modems you guys get given are awful. In Europe I've had Motorola, Nokia Siemens, ZyXEL, Linksys and Alcatel but in India you get... shit. Modems that even the Chinese themselves won't buy.

Half the problem here is the obligation for 30% or so of telecommunications equipment purchases to have to go to an Indian company. Problem is, the equipment is often so awful, it causes more problems than it's worth. I'm not personally 100% clear on how it has to work, but if that applies to us as well, then we'll probably end up buying our quota then throwing it in the trash or donating it to some poor company like BSNL because I don't want to have to deal with it.

What is the way out then for "unlimited services" then? Perhaps make the existing system more efficient? Maybe getting together as customers on a common platform to demand "better services"? What is the definition of "better services"- 99.9% uptimes ALL the times? Never a lag?


Broadband will only be as good as the infrastructure, irrespective of the plan type.

The real challenge is how can a provider realistically provide an "unlimited" plan, whilst keeping the prices down? Considering the costs of bandwidth and infrastructure, it's not easy.

I think this is a large portion of the reason that speeds in India are still so slow: it's only "reasonably possible" to provide 256k service with no data cap Rs750 a month because any more than that and there simply isn't going to be enough resource to go around, that is, international bandwidth. And forget NIXI - until the charges on that stop being so obscene, lack of peering with other providers will continue to force a lot of traffic offshore (even if it comes back to India), which really compounds the problem of resource availability.

It's hard to come over such an issue but then we all know the cure of this malady- efficient broadband is the answer. But we don't know how to treat this malady...

Customers need to really help ISPs figure out a way to work together - and my first step would be banding together to tell the government that NIXI's per-GB charges are unacceptable and ****ing up the state of Indian Broadband in a big way, and secondly that the local loop should become unbundled so that providers who choose to lease copper can provide unanimous service nationwide.

And for the telco babus? **** em. I can assure you that the likes of the TRAI, MTNL, BSNL, DoT all need some fresh blood - they're all currently being run by 60 and 70 year olds whose thinking is clearly outdated and this needs to change.
 
What Mg said is really the truth . The private companies wont budge and the PSU companies wont move their ass. We need the TRAI and the mad GOVT to rethink its policies and allow foreign operators to invest and build networks. Also they should change the way they charge. Hell even getting broadband at cheaper speeds in pakistan is easier and a less painful process.I am pretty sure biggies like comcast , telia sonera will be really interested in providing services in India. After all India has one of the biggest and fastest growing subscriber bases in the world. And the broadband connections are only to go up. Regardless wether the tariffs stay the same or increase. I think the future is that eventually the data content changing hands online will become so large that it will be necessary for the users to have 100mbit+ connections in another 3 years or so. I mean just think about it, 64bit displays , 8xlayer blu-ray discs, holographic storage, cloud computing. And the internet service will become something like a necessity to survive in this world. Everything will be operated via the network. From your phone, appliances. I feel its going to be the decade of the internet and the revolution has just begun. As far as the internet plans are concerned coming back to the main point, unlimited plans would not be governed by speed but by data usage. Eventually all the data lines are gonna be clogged up, unless they dont build some more sewage lines. (pardon the expression :D). SO from next year i hope 2mbps @ 599/month :)
 
I would agree much to what Mathew has to say. There is no dispute to this. But then, are ISP's supposed to be just "dumb pipes" to carry the data to and fro? This is important to be understood in context of "net neutrality" and perhaps "unlimited plans". At the same time, I'd agree about the unique mentality of Indians here in India. About being penny wise but pound foolish. However, a higher installation charge would not be seen as that having a perceived value of "faster speeds" because frankly 256kbps would get the same thing done for an end user (at present) as the same thing as 2-8 Mbps at present. Yet we know why we need more speeds. So there are dual set of users here. A very heterogeneous market indeed. And if you believe a recent poll (I think it was on Ars Technica or somewhere) where nearly 25% of Americans donot want broadband. Oh well, if we assume "american standards" are the way to go.
 
What Mg said is really the truth . The private companies wont budge and the PSU companies wont move their ass. We need the TRAI and the mad GOVT to rethink its policies and allow foreign operators to invest and build networks.

Amen.

Also they should change the way they charge. Hell even getting broadband at cheaper speeds in pakistan is easier and a less painful process.


I think your other neighbour(s) Bangladesh and Nepal are also worth a mention - Nepal has 3G coverage at the Mount Everest summit and Bangladesh is doing a lot of FTTH work, especially in Dhaka.

I am pretty sure biggies like comcast , telia sonera will be really interested in providing services in India. After all India has one of the biggest and fastest growing subscriber bases in the world. And the broadband connections are only to go up. Regardless wether the tariffs stay the same or increase.


I think we don't want them in India - I doubt they'd be much better than the existing players, but Telia (SE) and TeliaSonera (FI) I could deal with. I think the only times I ever had downtime in Helsinki was when there was an explosion in a sewer near my apartment, which I guess severed the cables - it was repaired in about 4 hours though.

I think the future is that eventually the data content changing hands online will become so large that it will be necessary for the users to have 100mbit+ connections in another 3 years or so.

I mean just think about it, 64bit displays , 8xlayer blu-ray discs, holographic storage, cloud computing. And the internet service will become something like a necessity to survive in this world. Everything will be operated via the network. From your phone, appliances.


Maybe not in 3 years but certainly looking forward in to the future this is undoubtable - and India can't afford to play catch up.

I feel its going to be the decade of the internet and the revolution has just begun. As far as the internet plans are concerned coming back to the main point, unlimited plans would not be governed by speed but by data usage. Eventually all the data lines are gonna be clogged up, unless they dont build some more sewage lines. (pardon the expression :D). SO from next year i hope 2mbps @ 599/month :)

Honestly, I hope too. Of course, for us it would be 5mbit/s at Rs999 ;)

But then, are ISP's supposed to be just "dumb pipes" to carry the data to and fro? This is important to be understood in context of "net neutrality" and perhaps "unlimited plans".


Yes and no. As far as net neutrality is concerned, in India there pretty much isn't any - ISPs charge each other for peering and at NIXI it's even per GB. Private arrangements may differ, but in India, rarely does connecting to an upstream provider seem to mean that a private peer is also created - so traffic between Reliance and MTNL might still go via Singapore, even if MTNL purchases wholesale bandwidth from Reliance (for example).

At the same time, I'd agree about the unique mentality of Indians here in India. About being penny wise but pound foolish. However, a higher installation charge would not be seen as that having a perceived value of "faster speeds" because frankly 256kbps would get the same thing done for an end user (at present) as the same thing as 2-8 Mbps at present. Yet we know why we need more speeds.


As much as I'd like to, I don't think we could get away with an installation charge of more than Rs1,000... not necessarily because fiber and our CPEs are more expensive than copper and the cheap shitty ADSL modems you get now, but because it could reduce the monthly tariffs on the line itself - kind of like paying off a large chunk of an EMI, or remortgaging a house, the monthly rate can go down because the term remains the same. Since we're looking at return on investment of (let's say) 5 years, a larger sum paid in the beginning of course means the amount paid every month could be less...

So there are dual set of users here. A very heterogeneous market indeed. And if you believe a recent poll (I think it was on Ars Technica or somewhere) where nearly 25% of Americans donot want broadband. Oh well, if we assume "american standards" are the way to go.

Were nearly 25% of the Americans surveyed sitting in rocking chairs with 3 teeth, a shotgun and an old dog by their side?

In all seriousness though, Broadband is not NEEDED by everybody.

Even if I were to only surf Facebook and download a few tunes from iTunes every month, it's still nice to know that I have 10 or 20 or 50 or 100mbit/s of bandwidth, so that, in the event that I'm downloading something, I'm not sitting around watching a progress bar count in 0.1% increments or imbibing enough caffeine to tranquilize a horse, or having a shitty experience on iChat or Skype Video.

I like having plenty of bandwidth for the same reason that all Indians have savings accounts: the funds are there just in case they are ever needed - or even to pass on to the offspring as an inheritance (in this metaphor, let's assume my funds is equal to the bandwidth capacity, and to pass to the offspring is to share the bandwidth with everyone in the household, as these days there is likely to be more than one internet connectable device in many homes).
 
Human Resources in India are cheap as chips.


IMHO the modems you guys get given are awful. In Europe I've had Motorola, Nokia Siemens, ZyXEL, Linksys and Alcatel but in India you get... shit. Modems that even the Chinese themselves won't buy.

I felt to cry reading this.
Someone has done his homework proficiently. Apparently.
 
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